Decoding Rivets

[xtricity]

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[xtricity]

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[rlweseman]

This is straight from the builders manual and is relative to this discussion - especially the NOTE section at the end.

2.1.5 Rivet Options

Most of the rivet options on the Panther build are open and interchangeable. There are some rivets requirements are not optional and are duly noted on the plans. If the plans indicate “or equivalent” then the builder has the option of the rivet called out or an equivalent strength/grip length rivet according to the rivet manufacturer guidelines. In general the builder can choose from:
 Protruding head pulled rivets
 Flush/countersunk pulled rivets.
 Flush solid aircraft rivets - MS20426AD3 (ACS calls them AN426AD3) (only for attaching skins)

**NOTE – You cannot use 5052 Aluminum (A) rivets as the sheer strength is not high enough
Rivet Material Mandrel Material Head Style Type of Rivet (not always used) Rivet diameter in 32nds of an inch Rivet maximum grip length in 16ths of and inch


**NOTE – SPA highly recommends only experienced builders use solid rivets for attaching skins. If you are planning to use solid rivets for attaching the skins on your Panther please make sure you are well versed with determining the proper grip length for the rivet application and that you have the proper tools for the job. There is a great deal of online and printed material on the proper procedure, please make good use of this.

** NOTE - Regarding rivet options for hinge: The side of the hinge that attaches to the control surface will be a protruding head rivet, EXCEPT for the trim tab (depends if you are using countersunk or protruding head rivets on your skin). The side of the hinge that attaches to the main structure will use the rivet type you are using on the skin, and length according to rivet length guidelines.

**Note - some builders prefer stainless steel rivets on the hinges for the additional shear strength.

Rivet guidelines:

 Rivet length is determined by the rivet grip guidelines of the rivet chosen. Please follow the guidelines of the rivet manufacturer.
 If the rivet is specified on the plans then use that rivet or the equivalent strength/grip length. This is not optional.
 If aluminum is attaching to steel then a stainless steel rivet is required.
 Closed end rivets are used on the fuel tanks.

 Rivet installation orientation – In general you should attempt to place the factory head against the thinnest metal. IE – when fastening .1875” to .032” the factory head lays against the .032”. This is not always possible, but should be practiced as a general guideline when it is. On the plans occasionally the rivet orientation will be shown or noted. This typically for ease of assembly or adequate access for the rivet puller. (The factory head is the preformed head that sits against the rivet puller. The other side is called the shop head.)

2.1.5.1 Understanding Pulled Rivet Nomenclature

SPA recommends Cherry pulled rivets or Aircraft rivets. Not all suppliers use the same naming structure. The most common Cherry rivet nomenclature is broken down as follows.

**NOTE – You cannot use 5052 Aluminum rivets as the sheer strength is not high enough

rivetnomenclature.jpg

To determine the proper grip length of a rivet required you add up the thicknesses of the metal being attached.
Some examples for selecting the proper rivet regarding grip length are:
Example 1 – When attaching a rib to a skin, if the skin is .020 and the rib is .025 the total thickness is .045 and the rivet to use would be a #1. Example would be BSC-41.

Example 2 – When attaching a .025 rib to a .1875 spar stiffener and a .032 spar channel the total thickness is 0.2445 making the rivet to use a #4.
**NOTE** - SPA LLC tested a great deal of rivets before settling on the ones chosen for the prototype. We used flush/blind rivets on the skins where aesthetics are in question. Where the rivets were not seen we used protruding heads such as BSPS-42 or BSPS-43 according to grip length recommendations. The recommended rivet for flush/blind for skin to rib attachment (except the fuel tanks) is the BSC-42 from Aircraft Spruce (ACS). Although it falls ever so slightly out of the typical grip range length, it produces tight joints and almost no stem pulls. When testing with the protruding head BSP-41 we experienced a high number of crack on the back side of the rivet, so we chose to recommend the BSPS-42 and were happy with the testing results. We recommend that any rivet you choose that you do a number of test installations verifying you result in a tight joint and minimal/no stem pulls.

Regarding how many rivets you need....
We are working with a hardware supplier to get a full kit available through us. We should be done with this within the next month or so.
If you don't want to wait on this then take a look at the hardware lists in the Wing Builders Manual or at aircraft spruce online and you will see what is required for the wings. The fuselage hardware kit will be published shortly.

[RonFranck]

More rivet questions, this time it is about which rivet and quantity.

I'm back to work on my Horizontal Tail, placing the skins over the stabilizer frame. A note on print P-T-HT-details calls out for BSP-41 rivets to attach the .025 skins to the .025 ribs and flanges. A quick glance at print P-T-VT-details calls for BSP-42 rivets to attach the skins to the ribs and flanges, also both .025. According to the rivet manufacturers grip length recommendations I should be using the -41 rivet. Is this correct? I understand the rivets indicated are merely recommendations from Dan and that it is up to the builder to decide which rivet to use dependent upon location/material thickness, but was there a specific reason for calling out a -41 on one print vs. the -42 on the other print?
Back to the quantity question. It looks like I'll be using approximately 400 rivets on the HS skins alone and more for the VS skins. I'm looking at ordering 1000 -41 and 100 -42 rivets from rivetsinstock.com but they currently offer free shipping on any order over $75.00 so I'd like to place a large order . Does anyone know approximately how many rivets will be needed during the complete construction of the entire airframe, including closed rivets for the fuel tanks? (Dan, Rachel?) I may as well place one order and be done with it.
Thanks,
Ron Franck

[rlweseman]

Posted by Rachel Weseman on 1/1/2014
Only closed end rivets are used on the fuel tanks. A simple search with my friend Google shows this example: http://www.rivetsinstock.com/rivets/bli ... 7Aodb2YAYQ

And here is a blind rivet example that clearly shows the difference:

http://www.rivetsinstock.com/rivets/bli ... 7AodgwMAzw

[rlweseman]

Posted by Dan Heath on 1/1/2014
It is mentioned in the plans that "Closed end rivets are used on the fuel tanks." I was under the impression that all the rivets were "closed end". If this is not the case, how do we distinguish between closed and not closed?

[psalter]

One thing I forgot to add. Apparently Aircraft Spruce lists the N style rivet using different part numbers than the manufacturer. The manufacturer lists the rivet as BSPS-04-01 and aircraft spruce lists it as BSPS-41. So from the manufacturers data sheets, you can drop the second - and remove the zeros to get aircraft spruce number.

So, the -04 is the diameter in 1/32" of an inch
and the -01 is the maximum grip length in 1/16" of an inch

Paul

[psalter]

Avdel is the subsidiary of Cherry that makes the N style rivets. Below are some of the links to the website.
Looking at the list of fasteners, the fourth letter designates the style of fastener.

I means interlock
S means N style
Q means Q style
T means T style

Don't ask me why they designate N style as S. Probably sometime in the past they used N for something else.

http://www.avdelusallc.com/products/fasteners_brk.shtml

Technically, according to Avdel, the N style is not a structural rivet because the stem is supposed to break below the head instead of even with the head (structural). Having said that, the strengths listed for the N is sufficient for the Panther, even in the structural situations. As that is how Dan designed it and came up with the rivet spacing based on the strength of the N rivet.

The data sheet for N style rivets can be found here: http://www.avdelusallc.com/products/nrivet.shtml

The tutorial link about rivets is interesting also: http://www.avdelusallc.com/help/tut_brk.shtml

[wmensink]

Thanks Tony!

I guess my first sentence was prophetic Sorry for taking up band with. Under the description of N rivets it stops at 3 letter designations but the Q rivet description lists a fourth letter. Structural? Bueller?

Will

[Tony Spicer]

Will,

You are correct. But what Ron is looking for is what the second S in BSPS-44 means. I'm clueless.

Tony