Panther Sport Aircraft Forums

First, Paul, Dan, Rachel, this is why I want to build a Panther. Your communication has been top notch. Second, holy cow. So if I only gain a couple of miles an hour with the O-320, a heavier engine, and the sport wing, I can see why the LSA wing is so popular. Any 100-115 or UL (which I like except for cost) seems like it will get amazing performance on the LSA wing, and if you don't care about LSA then you don't need to worry about top speed cert etc unless reselling as lsa.

One last one. Gonna order the plans and manual tonight to review while I have a week off. I tried to find a pneumatic cherry riveter. My riveter for avex was $100 from Spruce bc I needed one that took domed heads Zenith makes. Am I looking at the wrong ones? They are $800 for Cherry pneumatic? That has to be wrong.

The Panther prototype with a 3.0L Corvair tops out around 172 MPH, and cruises a bit over 160mph. That cruise speed was without agressive leaning produced about 6GPH. I know from some of the data on the GRT display, that some rate of climbs have been close to 2000fpm. I don't remember what the maximum was.

There are several UL engine sizes out there, the smallest is the UL 260 at 107 HP at 3300 RPM, around 100 HP at 2800 RPM. The next size is the UL350 is about 118hp at 3300 RPM and around 110 HP at 2800. There are also some 6cylinder ULs that are light, but can get up to 200hp. Like many of the smaller/lighter engines (Jabiru and Corvair), they need a smaller prop to top out the RPM, and rarely do you get static RPM much above 2800 RPM.

So, basically, you can cruise around 160 mph on just about any engine rated at 100hp or above. With a maximum 27 gal of fuel on board and 6GPH you would have around 4 hours and about 30 minute reserve. Larger, thirstier engines less time.

Dan can tell you what he calculated for the O-320 sport, but if memory serves approximately 10-15mph faster than the Corvair LSA.

Thank you for the detailed replies. Sounds like
I should build the fundamentals in so it could be resold with option, just not use them and not use quick release fittings.

So, it seems like:

1. Cowl will be no problem with a multitude of engines. Very nice!
2. Exhaust is no problem through Vetterman, etc. I was actually going to use an Aeronca/taylormade o-200 exhaust that comes into a single pipe on either side for $450 from Spruce on my Zenith 750 bc cowl is so tight. Ended up just getting 4 straight stainless pipes and welding stainless flanges and running them straight out of holes in cowl.

3. Most people seem to agree that adding power will only get you so far. This is why I wanted to stay with the smallest engine I can for weight, cost, etc on the fastest wing. So, I understand correctly that an o-235, o-200, UL would produce the fastest plane with the lsa wing? I want the 160-200 mph envelope, and I don't really care about lsa as a commercial instrument pilot. I also want to maximize useful load bc I am 6'3, 240 lbs with a 36" inseam.

Bottom line, if I don't want to spend $30k on engine, but really like and feel comfortable with a mid-time aviation engine, what is the wing/engine combo without tri gear that gets me 160mph plus? A mid time o-320? What speeds would I get out of an o-235 with either wing? And, if you don't want to certify lsa, can either wing be built to the higher gross or does lsa wing have lower loading requirements likely.

Just trying to get the most speed, with reasonable useful Load for person and 2-3 hours of fuel, and maybe some
Night VFR lighting for those great times when you just don't want to come home at sunset.

Tell me if I'm wrong, but that seems like o-320/UL and sport wing, or any other engine and lsa wing. If it's the latter, what is realistic speeds you are seeing on the Corvair/LSA wing as this is pretty darn close to a o-200 or o-235....I want gentleman aerobatics, pretty decent cross country speeds. Please report rough cruise speeds and climb with corvair Panther.

I was mildly weary after Zenith 750 for a couple of weeks, but after following the Panther since inception, I am now super pumped again now that I have a buyer. This plane is exciting! And it is one of the few with blind rivets, and Cherry at that. So much better than Avex. That is a huge plus!!!

i agree - engine posts belong over in engines. i will see if i can figure out how to move them over there.

Great posts. I would like to see more on the UL Power as I am considering it. I would also like to see the Engine posts in the Engine category/topic.

Thanks for the thoroughness of this information.

Thanks Paul
I typed a very similar post over the last 15 minutes but bumped esc on the keyboard and poof gone.

from designers POV if I didn't want wing fold

1. delete slide tubes and the tri pods on that bolt on the fuse . this saves 75% of the weight
2.delete the fule line quick disconnects. this saves 150 Bucks in fittings
3.install the slide plates in wing and test fit tubes during construction
4.install guides in fuse spar box
5. install the aileron joiners .
this approach save a good portion of the weight and allows adding wing fold easier later (resale situation change etc)

The tri gear will be offered on the long wing version ,currently with the corvair engine. Jabiru may offer one later also?
we may do one for the 0-200 based on the packaging and demand. Intrest in a tri gear is shockingly low, but it may be due to it not being offered yet. I see a poll coming soon....

the big technical reason for not having the tri gear on the Short wing is that as the wing loading goes up so dose the amount of energy the gear absorbs (its calculated into a "drop height"). the lower gross weight and lower wing loading allows a much lower drop height

As Paul touched on the larger engines (0-235 - 0-320 class engines) are closer to the firewall and have less room for the nose gear. Also these engines typically like a longer propeller so ground clearance becomes a issue with the tri gear / larger engines unless the gear gets really tall... which is heavier with more stress on airframe.... the downward spiral starts.

the CG actually isn't a issue. converting to a tri gear will likely shift CG AFT as the heavy main gear are moved well behind the CG. the removal of tail wheel and adding the nose gear doesn't typically offset this. may aircraft like RVs, Sonex,Piper PA-22/20 Have more aft CG with tri gear .

the short wing on the same power will be less than 10 MPH faster. The larger the engine the more the spread will be between short and long wing. Same with take off climb . The smaller engines will have a much better climb rate with the long wing as power goes up the effect will not be as dramatic.

We will offer exhaust sytems (likely vetternam) with at least one heat muff for the 0-235/0 -320 ,and the C-85/0-200

hope this helps some

The Panther can be built without folding wings, however, you won't save much weight about 8 lbs. The folding wing option only consists of 4 nylon blocks, 4 aileron paddles, 2 small steel tripods, and 2 6ft thin wall aluminum tubes. While most portions can be retrofitted later, the 4 nylon blocks can only be installed with the wing skin off. Aileron bellcranks and push rods have to be replaced also if you do not install the aileron paddles.

The aluminum tube for wing folding has to slide easily in the 4 nylon blocks, and typically, the fit is pretty tight, and I had to use a deburring tool to open the hole in the nylon blocks slightly (mainly because of diameter tolerance of the tube). That is hard/impossible to do with the wing assembled.

There is no extra wear and tear on the aircraft or G restrictions if you have the folding wing option installed. The spars and wing structure stay the same. Bolts are used instead of removable pins to hold the wing in place.

Without the aileron paddles installed, you will also have to disconnect your ailerons manually to pull the wing. So, that takes more time.

Some things you loose by deleting folding wing,
Can't park your friends airplane in the hangar when he/she flies in.
If there was an emergency, can't trailer the airplane back as easily.
Can't put as many Panthers in the booth at Sun-n-fun or Oshkosh
Many people like the folding wing option, so a Panther without it, may not sell as well.

Beta builders Tony and Bob both started out with fixed wing, but both changed their minds and put folding wings on.

The same cowling is used for O-200, O-233, O-235, O-320 and UL's. Corvairs and Jabirus have different cowls. Mounts will be available for all the engines just mentioned.

For the same engine, you will actually loose performance with the sport wing, with the exception of Roll rate. With the smaller sport wing, your stall speed increases, turn radius increases, and your rate of climb decreases. Speed probably won't change much. Roll rate does increase with the Sport wing. If you are planning the smaller engines 100-115hp, get the LSA wing. Sport wing was really intended for the largest engines were you can use the extra thrust/hp to make up for the loss of lift.

I can't tell you about exhaust for the O-200/O-235 but, there are several builders that are going to use those engines.

The nose gear can't be used with the O-320 because of weight and Balance issues. The O-320 is so large and heavy, it is mounted closer to the firewall, and there is not enough room to fit the nose gear on the engine mount, like on smaller engines. Also, the extra weight of the nose gear and the weight of the engine will be harder to keep in CG range.

The nose gear will add more weight and drag than wing fold option.

I am glad this subject came up as I am contemplating leaving out the folding wing option also. At what point do I need to address this and if it is left out, can it be added in after the Panther is complete? Will these options be explained in the BM? So far in the building of the wings, I have only seen the two rib modifications for the round tube and instructions to check for fit of the tube, which I have not done after having assembled the wing.

This is not putting down the value of the folding wing, because there are many builders that really want a plane with that capability, I just want to be able to easily remove the wings for transport and inspections.

Thank you.

Hi,

I just sold my first build, a Zenith 750, and am going to start a Panther kit! I have no desire whatsoever to build a folding wing. Don't like the extra wear and tear, nor the extra weight of all of the hinge brackets and pieces that are needed to accommodate. Can the Panther be built without the folding option?

Also, I started with a Corvair for my 750, but ended up going with a o-200. Want an aviation engine in Panther too. Like the o-235 better than o-200 bc less carb ice, less oil leaks around pushrods, and a little more hp. Will there be a mount and cowl made for this engine? I assume the o-200 will have a cowl and mount as well if I wanted to go with a higher compression o-200.

Finally, I would like to use the sport wing, not the lsa. Why can't the nose gear be used with sport wing? And, I assume you get higher performance with sport wing on any given engine, than with the lsa wing? So, an o-200 might actually be ok. Already have build experience with o-200, but prefer o-235 for carb ice and oil leaks.

Sorry, one other question. Will there be supported exhaust for o-200 or o-235? The issue I had with 750 was getting carb heat and cabin hear muffs to fit, if I didn't spend $2400 for custom exhaust from Zenair.

Looking forward to placing order for first kit this week. The hangar is so empty.....