It baffles me why Rotec would expend the energy and money to develop those heads unless they feel there is a market for them. Of course some people have more money than sense but I tend to give them the benefit of the doubt on this one. Granted it is a big pill to swallow to purchase new heads for an engine that should work fine. Those babies aren't cheap.
I will contact Jab in Australia and see how many 6 cyl. they have flying and see if we can't get an hour count.
Mark
Jab 3300
Forum rules
A forum for Panther aircraft builders and Enthusiasts. Two simple rules: Play nice and use a real name
A forum for Panther aircraft builders and Enthusiasts. Two simple rules: Play nice and use a real name
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CAVU Mark
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Tony Spicer
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Re: Jab 3300
Hi Mark,
Yep, I have thoughts! First, save your money. Rotec heads are great for folks that don't know how to design a cooling system for the Jab.
If there's a slower, draggier airframe than the Zenith 750, I haven't seen it. Pete Krotje did the 3300 FWF package for the 750 and it has no cooling problems. The Panther doesn't exactly fit into the slow and draggy catagory, which means I could most likely do the FWF myself. But Pete's going to do it, which will guarantee no problems. I did the FWF on my Sonex back in 2000. After a couple of false starts, I ended up with a system that if anything, ran a bit on the cool side.
There's a very interesting article in the May, 2013 issue of Kitplanes magazine on taming the Jabiru, which shows how to cool the Jab properly in a Legend Cub. Interestingly, in the same issue there's an article on the Super Legend where they state that the 3300 is no longer offered in the Cub because of cooling issues. Go figure.
And on another topic, if you don't subscribe to Kitplanes, please consider giving it a go. Paul Dye, the new editor is a homebuilder thru-and-thru.
Tony
Yep, I have thoughts! First, save your money. Rotec heads are great for folks that don't know how to design a cooling system for the Jab.
If there's a slower, draggier airframe than the Zenith 750, I haven't seen it. Pete Krotje did the 3300 FWF package for the 750 and it has no cooling problems. The Panther doesn't exactly fit into the slow and draggy catagory, which means I could most likely do the FWF myself. But Pete's going to do it, which will guarantee no problems. I did the FWF on my Sonex back in 2000. After a couple of false starts, I ended up with a system that if anything, ran a bit on the cool side.
There's a very interesting article in the May, 2013 issue of Kitplanes magazine on taming the Jabiru, which shows how to cool the Jab properly in a Legend Cub. Interestingly, in the same issue there's an article on the Super Legend where they state that the 3300 is no longer offered in the Cub because of cooling issues. Go figure.
And on another topic, if you don't subscribe to Kitplanes, please consider giving it a go. Paul Dye, the new editor is a homebuilder thru-and-thru.
Tony
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CAVU Mark
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Re: Jab 3300
Hi Tony,
Just back from Oshkosh, I went early to avoid the crowds.
Anyway I queried a friend in Australia to get his input on the Jab, and also reviewed the Rotec website and their conclusions on their water cooled heads. They seem to have a convincing argument for their heads. Any thoughts?
Mark
Just back from Oshkosh, I went early to avoid the crowds.
Anyway I queried a friend in Australia to get his input on the Jab, and also reviewed the Rotec website and their conclusions on their water cooled heads. They seem to have a convincing argument for their heads. Any thoughts? Mark
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Tony Spicer
- Posts: 304
- Joined: Sun May 05, 2013 7:35 am
- First Name: Tony
- Last Name: Spicer
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- Location: Wilmington, NC 7NC1
Re: Jab 3300
Hi Mark,
Good to see you've joined the group!
I've been out of the Jab business since 2005, but have continued to follow it closely, mostly thru friends with Jabs and the Jab factory website. I read the Jab Yahoo group regularly, and take most of what I read there with a grain of salt. But that's a discussion for another time.
It has been my experience that almost every Jab issue comes with a reason. Tailwind builder designs his own cooling system and has overheating problems. If there's one thing the Jab folks know, it's how to cool a Jab. Maybe designing a better mousetrap isn't so easy. Maybe staying with what has been proven to work is the best way to go.
Be interesting to compare the Jab to the UL, but we can't. Why? Because the UL has zero history. Let UL get a thousand engines in the field, and we can discuss how they've done.
As far as customer support goes, there will always be somebody that complains. Sonex has some of the best customer support in the business, but there are still those that aren't happy with how they were treated.
“You can please some of the people all of the time, you can please all of the people some of the time, but you can’t please all of the people all of the time”.
Tony
Good to see you've joined the group!
I've been out of the Jab business since 2005, but have continued to follow it closely, mostly thru friends with Jabs and the Jab factory website. I read the Jab Yahoo group regularly, and take most of what I read there with a grain of salt. But that's a discussion for another time.
It has been my experience that almost every Jab issue comes with a reason. Tailwind builder designs his own cooling system and has overheating problems. If there's one thing the Jab folks know, it's how to cool a Jab. Maybe designing a better mousetrap isn't so easy. Maybe staying with what has been proven to work is the best way to go.
Be interesting to compare the Jab to the UL, but we can't. Why? Because the UL has zero history. Let UL get a thousand engines in the field, and we can discuss how they've done.
As far as customer support goes, there will always be somebody that complains. Sonex has some of the best customer support in the business, but there are still those that aren't happy with how they were treated.
“You can please some of the people all of the time, you can please all of the people some of the time, but you can’t please all of the people all of the time”.
Tony
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CAVU Mark
- Posts: 14
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- First Name: Mark
- Last Name: A
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Re: Jab 3300
I made the comment about the JAB and the poor performance on 2 aircraft in my local EAA chapter. I tried to get more details today but one party is no longer available (gone west) and the other did not show. I did talk to a JAB 2200 owner (sonex aircraft) and he spoke well of the engine. He does follow manufacturers recommended maintenance quite closely. He is approaching 200 hours and so far so good. He is now in the cautious waiting period since he is familiar with the other 2 3300 incidents.
1) 3300 in a Tailwind. Sucked a valve and overheating. Owned did design his own cooler system and also had heads reworked as one point. I recall something about the wrong valve seat being installed. This owner is no longer available to provide details. He was a true experimenter and may have used some marginal installation designs. I know he was constant belly aching about the engine. An A&P purchased his airplane and I will talk with him next time I see him.
2) 3300 in a Tiger Moth. In flight broken crankshaft. This owner, while a builder, is not a die-hard experimenter. He followed the instructions. I learned today that the crankshaft may have been the wrong one, it was provided by a JAB authorized dealer so somewhere something got mixed up. This owner is still around and I will see him in a week or two to get more details.
Personal opinion: Flying a low-cost engine saves money. For me it does not provide the same peace of mind a certified or non-auto conversion engine does. The price differential will be returned upon sale so the up front cost is an insurance policy, real and perceived.
Re: Comment on UL. Yes it is a new engine but was born into a racing family, DR Tuning in Belgium. They appear to know what they are doing, their CNC operation is a marvel to see. The UL engine was developed because JAB did not want to support the 2200 in a vertical helicopter operation, ok their choice. Personally, I like the fuel injection and FADEC. However, I fly a 6 cylinder and prefer its smoother operation.
Yes, not exactly scientific data but many times gut feelings are all we have to go on. I have also heard JAB customer support is poor and I know that Rotec makes a water cooled head for the JAB and that speaks to the overheating issue.
Mark
1) 3300 in a Tailwind. Sucked a valve and overheating. Owned did design his own cooler system and also had heads reworked as one point. I recall something about the wrong valve seat being installed. This owner is no longer available to provide details. He was a true experimenter and may have used some marginal installation designs. I know he was constant belly aching about the engine. An A&P purchased his airplane and I will talk with him next time I see him.
2) 3300 in a Tiger Moth. In flight broken crankshaft. This owner, while a builder, is not a die-hard experimenter. He followed the instructions. I learned today that the crankshaft may have been the wrong one, it was provided by a JAB authorized dealer so somewhere something got mixed up. This owner is still around and I will see him in a week or two to get more details.
Personal opinion: Flying a low-cost engine saves money. For me it does not provide the same peace of mind a certified or non-auto conversion engine does. The price differential will be returned upon sale so the up front cost is an insurance policy, real and perceived.
Re: Comment on UL. Yes it is a new engine but was born into a racing family, DR Tuning in Belgium. They appear to know what they are doing, their CNC operation is a marvel to see. The UL engine was developed because JAB did not want to support the 2200 in a vertical helicopter operation, ok their choice. Personally, I like the fuel injection and FADEC. However, I fly a 6 cylinder and prefer its smoother operation.
Yes, not exactly scientific data but many times gut feelings are all we have to go on. I have also heard JAB customer support is poor and I know that Rotec makes a water cooled head for the JAB and that speaks to the overheating issue.
Mark
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habickford
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- First Name: Harold
- Last Name: Bickford
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Re: Jab 3300
Tony,
You are expanding the envelope here with the Jabiru 3300. Since the Panther is designed for a fairly wide range of engine power and weight it makes sense for someone who can do the R&D work to forge ahead. Everyone can benefit from these efforts and I am glad to see folks who have the wherewithal to take on the challenge.
Harold
You are expanding the envelope here with the Jabiru 3300. Since the Panther is designed for a fairly wide range of engine power and weight it makes sense for someone who can do the R&D work to forge ahead. Everyone can benefit from these efforts and I am glad to see folks who have the wherewithal to take on the challenge.
Harold
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Tony Spicer
- Posts: 304
- Joined: Sun May 05, 2013 7:35 am
- First Name: Tony
- Last Name: Spicer
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- Location: Wilmington, NC 7NC1
Jab 3300
Well folks, if you've seen this: http://flypanther.net/2013/05/30/panthe ... biru-3300/ then you know there's been a change in engine choice for my Panther. Although short, my experience with the Corvair was a good one. It will make a fine powerplant for the Panther. So why did I change? I convinced Dan and Rachel that the Jab would be a great fit for the Panther, and that it shouldn't be left up to a customer to be the guinea pig for the initial install. I had a 3300 in my Sonex, and had about 450 hours on it when it was sold. I know and trust Pete Krotje, the Jab dealer and have worked thru engine issues with him in the past. My most recent experience with the Jab was when a bud at the local airport built a Zenair 750 with a 3300. He put 100 hours on it in a year with absolutely no issues. Then sold it to build an RV-8.
If you read Rachel's Panther blog, then you may have seen this comment:
"I would vote for the UL Power engine. Our local EAA chapter has too many nightmares when it comes to the Jab. Good luck with it."
I have invited the commenter here to discuss his Jab issues. Looking forward to the discussion!
Tony
If you read Rachel's Panther blog, then you may have seen this comment:
"I would vote for the UL Power engine. Our local EAA chapter has too many nightmares when it comes to the Jab. Good luck with it."
I have invited the commenter here to discuss his Jab issues. Looking forward to the discussion!
Tony