Panther Sport Aircraft Forums

stevegawler wrote:I'm pretty sure now that the Cleveland "120 degree die for 1/8" pop rivets" is manufactured wrong. It is a 120 degree die, but the male die is the same size in profile as an AN -4 die which is slightly too small for our flush rivets.

I've had great customer service from Cleaveland. I think you mentioned you were already talking to Annette. I'm sure they'd let you return it if you bought it through them. Also, they would probably take your feedback to improve the die or clarify what rivets it should be used with.

Looks like the DIENQ is the ticket where you can dimple normally. I ordered the Sonex close quarter dies today since Avery is no longer in business.

I'm pretty sure now that the Cleveland "120 degree die for 1/8" pop rivets" is manufactured wrong. It is a 120 degree die, but the male die is the same size in profile as an AN -4 die which is slightly too small for our flush rivets.

blueisthenewblack wrote:

stevegawler wrote:Question: is there a difference between the close quarter dies from the various tool suppliers? The Cleveland version could be a little better.

Sonex has 120 degree dimple die. With the Sonex version, you updrill to #30, deburr, then use the die:
http://www.sonexaircraft.com/eshop/cart ... ory_id=260

I've found that the dimples produced with the close quarters die aren't quite as crisp as DIENQ, but the rivet still fits very well - flush with no protrusion.

Per Mike from Cleaveland, the correct process with the Cleaveland DIENQ is:

1) Drill with #40 Jobber drill bit & Cleco as you go along (with proper size Cleco)
2) Disassemble
3) Deburr
4) Dimple with DIENQ
5) Use #30 reamer to enlarge hole if needed. (Feed the reamer slowly to eliminate the need to deburr again.)

I've found with 90% of the dimples that the #30 reamer fits perfectly. For the remainder, it takes just a few turns of the reamer to enlarge it.

I have been using the same process exactly with no problems (maybe 1% prowd stems). Noticed that if I deburr more 'aggressively' before the DIENQ that the #30 reamer is not necessary, get a perfect tight fit.

rh

Steve
IMO there is a big difference in close quarter dimple dies from vendors. The set I used came from Avery tool. The ones from Sonex doesn't dimple as crips. So yes big difference.

stevegawler wrote:Question: is there a difference between the close quarter dies from the various tool suppliers? The Cleveland version could be a little better.

Sonex has 120 degree dimple die. With the Sonex version, you updrill to #30, deburr, then use the die:
http://www.sonexaircraft.com/eshop/cart ... ory_id=260

I've found that the dimples produced with the close quarters die aren't quite as crisp as DIENQ, but the rivet still fits very well - flush with no protrusion.

Per Mike from Cleaveland, the correct process with the Cleaveland DIENQ is:

1) Drill with #40 Jobber drill bit & Cleco as you go along (with proper size Cleco)
2) Disassemble
3) Deburr
4) Dimple with DIENQ
5) Use #30 reamer to enlarge hole if needed. (Feed the reamer slowly to eliminate the need to deburr again.)

I've found with 90% of the dimples that the #30 reamer fits perfectly. For the remainder, it takes just a few turns of the reamer to enlarge it.

Well I drilled a lot of holes in some scrap today. DIENQ dies made great dimples with the rivets being flush. The close quarters die made acceptable dimples using the copper nail that might need a little touch up with sandpaper. The 1/8", 120 degree dies made unacceptable dimples which, like my tail kit, were still not flush.

Upon closer examination of the dies, the DIENQ had a much larger "volcano" on the male die than the 1/8" die and the female DIENQ die had a slightly larger diameter hole for the rivet head than the 1/8" die. I believe these Cleveland 1/8" dies are made incorrectly and I called Annette today to discuss it.

Question: is there a difference between the close quarter dies from the various tool suppliers? The Cleveland version could be a little better.

Using the max pressure possible. I tried my 100 degree dies on scrap yesterday and while not pretty, the rivet set deeper. It does seem like using more downward pressure results in a tighter fit but on the rudder stiffeners this is not possible. Those are some of the bad ones.

Steve
Your 120 dimple die from Cleveland should work. First check to be sure it not for 100 degree rivets. Could have got packaged wrong? I've used both pulled rivet dimple dies from Cleveland and recommend the DIENQ dies. You start off with 3/32 or #40 hole then dimple using DIENQ. They dimple 120 but leave a slightly smaller hole about a #31 drill size for a tighter fit. Cleveland makes very high quality tools from my experience.

Certainly sounds like die issues to me. Just some things to check. Are you squeezing the dimple dies hard enough? Correct dies/rivets? Pics could help out....

Maybe take some scrap and play with different tensions with the squeezer


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Help!

Don't think I am getting acceptable flush rivets. Mine are slightly proud and if using AN rivets I would consider shaving some of them. I'm using Cleveland "120 degree dies for 1/8" blind rivets" in a DRT-2 and a Main Squeeze riveter, pulling them with a pneumatic gun at 30-40 PSI per Dan's suggestion that a slower pull is better. Just don't seem to have deep enough dimples and the overall quality when pulled is inconsistent- not good enough for me. Considering starting over and/or just using dome head rivets.

Looking at Tony's web site, specifically picture 154/tail section, his dimples are larger than the rivets and that the pulling action also pulls the dimple and rivet down slightly so that the whole area is below the plane of the skin. Am I seeing this right? When I create a dimple the rivet does not fit "down" in it before I pull it. In fact, when I put a rivet in the dimple I can't see the dimple at all. Wondering if I have some bad dies.

Any ideas?